wallyl
Levergunner 2.0
116 Posts
Posted - 11/06/2006 : 08:55:00 AM
I am having a problem with misfires on reloaded ammo. I thought the problem was taken care of up until Saturday while deer hunting, it did fire on the second attempt and got the buck. I am using Federal primers which did help but still had occasional misfires until I installed a spacer on the hammer strut to increase hammer striking pressure, after that ammo that had previously misfired with repeated attempts fired so I thought the problem was fixed.
The newly designed rebounding hammer/inertia firing pin setup does not appear to be reliable so I was wondering if anyone has a fix or if parts are available to return to the old design.
I am also not having any luck with finding disassembly proceedures specific to the 1886 so if someone could help out here it would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks,
Wally
Griff
Advanced Levergunner
USA
5495 Posts
wallyl, Welcome to the forum. You can check out Browning's 2005 Parts Book (.pdf download) and see if they list the parts you need still, or go to Winchester's site and download their 2005 Parts Book. (also a .pdf download)
I checked out Numrich Arms and while they list parts for the Winchester 1886, they don't have a listing under Browning or anything listed under Miroku. I'm not able to ascertain that the 1886 parts they have listed are for the original Winchesters or the Japanese produced Browning or Winchester copies. I strong suspect they're only for the originals, as Numrich usually does a good job of differentiating between original and replica.
Griff & "Poco"There is a fine line between "hobby" and "mental illness." SASS/CMSA #93
86er
Senior Levergunner
USA
1278 Posts
My 1886 did this with PMC ammo only. I found that the primers were sticking out just a wee bit. The first hammer strike would seat the primer and then the next would ignite it. The first strike showed a light hit. I contacted PMC - but they are going down - so nothing was done. I have tried all kinds of other factory ammo and never had the same problem. Recently, I experienced it again with some reloads. After careful measurements, it was again the primers. They were not seated as deeply as they could have. We re-pressed the primers and the rest of the ammo worked fine. Give this a try and see what happens. wallyl
Levergunner 2.0
116 Posts
Thanks for the welcome, links and primer information. I will check all out. I know the primer is flush at minimum because I set the brass on a flat surface to insure this. I just assumed it was ok but never stopped to think about being fully seated. This is the only firearm I have with the inertia firing pin and it makes since that it would have to be fully seated to get the full impact, thanks 86er.
Thanks for the links Griff, I will check them out.
cnjarvis
Levergunner 2.0
USA
434 Posts
86er,
I hope you pulled the bullets on those loads b4 you re-seated the primers!
ChrisLeverluver
Levergunner 3.0
572 Posts
It is not the primers fault. That is a common complaint with the Miroku/Winchesters with the rebounding hammer. The primer is receiving a light strike due to the rebound feature. The solution is to deactivate the rebound. Cut the tine of the strut fork off that makes the hammer rebound. After doing that, you will most definitely not have any striker caused misfired. In fact, the hammer will slam the heck out of the firing pin. Sometimes it is better to also reduce the main spring to get the hammer strike back to "normal". This not only solves your problems but also makes the action easier to lever and reduces the trigger pull somewhat because you won't have to overcome the heavy hammer spring. wallyl
Levergunner 2.0
116 Posts
86er,
I only have about 15 rounds from the last reload so i will not be reseating primers on those and will use as is. I will look at the seating on the fired ones, then do a comparison and cull suspect ones, if any, for target and not hunting. I have pulled bullets in the past but was not really excited about doing it, much less, trying to reseat primers on loaded shells.
Have another quick comment and question.......We where taping the hunt this weekend and on playback we noticed that just cocking the hammer sure made a lot of noise, has this been discussed or addressed on this group?wallyl
Levergunner 2.0
116 Posts
Leverluver, Saw an article on disabling the rebound, looked easy enough to do. I think the reason I did not persue this is that it also indicated that with hammer at half-cock it would release if the trigger was pulled. This would be a problem for me because I have installed a tang sight and the safty is not easily accessable.
WallyGriff
Advanced Levergunner
USA
5495 Posts
Originally posted by wallyl
...we noticed that just cocking the hammer sure made a lot of noise...
If I'm still hunting and happen to spot a deer w/o a round in the chamber, and in some heavily wooded areas, (I don't like carrying a rifle in that condition, deadfalls, leaves, steep hills, etc), I keep either a jacket or a fleece liner over the action and it greatly muffles the sound of the action being worked. At worst, it disrupts where the sound is coming from, and have gotten a couple of shots like this.
Since I mostly hunt nowadays from a stand, the first procedure works. It's not something I recommend you try for the first time in the field, but rather something I've worked on doing consistently and safely at home with an unloaded firearm.
Griff & "Poco"There is a fine line between "hobby" and "mental illness."
crs
Levergunner 3.0
USA
558 Posts
wallyl
I have the Winchester/Miroku 1886 in .45-90 and I did have the rebounding hammer removed and the action slicked up, and the hammer spring "relaxed" as Leverluver suggests.
The result is a 4 pound trigger pull, easier and quieter cocking, and a much easier to operate action.
I have had occasional misfires with PMC and Ultramax cowboy ammo, but never with any other ammo. The cowboy action stuff was just for light recoil practice any how and there will be no more of it purchased after it is all gone; the cases will be reloaded.
BTW - as Griff advised me when shooting his Sharps, you may not want to wrap your thumb around the rear of that tang sight base unless you want your nose and thumb to become better acquainted when shooting heavy loads.
CRS, NRA Endowment Member
wallyl
Levergunner 2.0
116 Posts
Originally posted by Griff
[quote]Originally posted by wallyl
...we noticed that just cocking the hammer sure made a lot of noise...
Griff, good ideas on the noise, as you can probably tell I have been hunting with bolt actions for the last 40 something years. Thankswallyl
Levergunner 2.0
116 Posts
Originally posted by crs
wallyl
I have the Winchester/Miroku 1886 in .45-90
CRS, your a little late on the advice, been there and done that. I have worked up a load using the Barnes X 225 gr. It shoots plus or minus 2" from zero out to about 120 yards which is plenty for my old eyes and the recoil is a lot less than any factory loads I have tried. Grouping is also better than the 300 or 405gr.Hairy Clipper
Levergunner
USA
26 Posts
I too have had non-firing with my Japanese made 1886. The biggest buck I have seen hunting in Minnesota stuck his tongue out and ran off after dropping the hammer twice on a factory round and it failed to ignite. The weapon was sent back to Winchester and they told me that the hammer spring was replaced, however, the primers still do not appear to being hit very hard by the firing pin. It would go bang on warm days and fail to fire on cold ones.
So, now the dilema, I am leaving for northen Minnesota tomorrow morning...do I take the 1886 along or use it as a door stop?
Hairywallyl
Levergunner 2.0
116 Posts
Originally posted by Hairy Clipper
I too have had non-firing Hairy
Hairy, I am going to shave a little off the lower fork of the strut basically disabling rebound on the hammer. Good chance you are correct on the temperature thing. We had a cold front come through on opening morning of deer season when this misfire occurred. When I thought I had the problem corrected it was in the high 70's and opening morning it was about 39 degrees. Since according to info I have read the spring pressure is around 80lbs and this pressure appears to be marginal depending on primer seating and manufacture. I am sure the spring pressure varies considerably with temperature.
I did not want to make permanent changes but I really don't want a expensive door stop either.
Wally
Leverluver
Levergunner 3.0
572 Posts
Wally
As the work CRS speaks of is being performed, it is a simple operation to cut a half cock notch in the hammer (the rebounding hammers do not come with one) if that is what you want.
You might look at another alternative but I will preface it by saying that this is something that you (or anyone else reading it) need to test for yourself, as I have done. Be cautious and use your own brain when implimenting recommendations from the internet.
That said, you might consider forgoing the half cock notch altogether. The half cock is necessary if it is completely unsafe for the hammer to be down on the bolt. Case in point is my Browning M95. The firing pin is similar, if not an exact copy of the original. In other words, the firing pin protrudes out of the bolt and contacts the primer if the hammer is down. Obviously, if there is a round in the chamber, there has to be a half cock or it would be extremely damgerous. In fact, when speaking of any gun designed the same as above, it is not what I would call undangerous, even if there were a half cock notch. A heavy blow from being dropped or being struck by a heavy object can still break the sear and cause the round to fire. BUT, the newer Miroku M95, as well as pretty much all the "Winchester/Mirokus" with the rebounding hammers (and some Brownings without i.e., 86 and 71), also have an inertia firing pin. The firing pin does not extend from the bolt and cannot touch the primer, if the hammer is down. To check this, observe the distance that the firing pin goes in when the hammer is down. Open the action and push the firing pin in, with your finger, the same distance. Look at the bolt face and see if the business end of the firing pin protrudes from the bolt.
I have tested my Brownings (71 and 86) by inserting a primed case into the chamber and whacking the living hell out of the hammer with a 4 pound dead blow hammer, to just short of breaking the hammer spur itself. Nothing ever happened and it was because when the hammer is down, there is no potential energy available to be transferred to the inertia firing pin. All the energy from the hammer blows was transferred to the back of the bolt and the firing pin never moved. It is my contention that with the inertia firing pin IN GOOD WORKING ORDER, there is no way for the round to fire, with the hammer fully down. It could be dropped from a tree or struck with a falling rock or whatever and with no distance between the hammer and the bolt, the gun will not fire. Now if you had a half cock (and no safety as you mentioned), the gun still has the potential to fire as the half cock notch or the sear can be broken from the blow.
Purists will howl and if the half cock is what you grew up with then, by all means, continue with what you are familiar with. Just don't be under the misconception that walking along with a round chambered and at half cock is the safest thing you can do. Obviously, no round in the chamber at all is the safest, by far.
I hate the rebounding hammers but I do believe that the inertia firing pins are a safety advancement, when used properly.
Whatever you do DO NOT do that stupid Scovill modification where the hammer is left dangling in mid air, half way between the half cock and fully down. I cannot think of a more dangerous way to carry with a round in the chamber. Either do the half cock modification or leave the hammer down.
Pete44ru
Advanced Levergunner
USA
4121 Posts
I strongly suggest a read of the article covering just this subject, in the November 2003 issue of Rifle Magazine(#210), starting on page 6, and titled "Winchester Tang Safety" by Dave Scovil.
The title notwithstanding, the article's second half goes into great detail, with pics, on how to dis-assemble a Miroku rebounding-hammer action, and exactly how much (.035" to .040")to shorten exactly what (the lower hammer strut finger) where -to stop misfires, light firing pin strikes, and inadvertant engagement of the safety.
Edited by - Pete44ru on 11/06/2006 12:51:46 PMwallyl
Levergunner 2.0
116 Posts
[quote]Originally posted by Leverluver
Wally
As the work CRS speaks of is being performed.........
Leverluver, Thanks for taking time to fully explain, it all makes since to have the hammer all the way down, going to remove the spacer I installed for test purposes and take just enough off the strut for hammer down.
Thanks again,
Wallywallyl
Levergunner 2.0
116 Posts
A BIG Thanks To All, your help in resolving this problem was invaluable. Decided to shave a little off the strut in steps, and test fire using 3 different primer manufacturers at each step. I was able to reach a point of reliable ignition on all three primer manufacturers, even on tests performed with primers not fully seated. This was accomplished before the strut length got to the point of disabling the rebounding hammer. The only variable not verified at this point is the effects of temperature with regard to spring pressure and the wife said she better not find it in the refrigerator so guess I will just wait for the first cold spell.
WallyOld Time Hunter
Senior Levergunner
USA
1430 Posts
Just got back from the range, my brand new Browning 1886 was a none player. It refused to fire, not even a smudge on the primers. Pulled the trigger 100 times. This is my first Japanese made Winchester/Browning, why doesn't the firing pin extend from front to back of bolt? What the heck is an intertia firing pin? By the way it was relatively warm today, around 33'. So that should not have bearing on it.
Edited by - Old Time Hunter on 11/12/2006 2:32:14 PMGriff
Advanced Levergunner
USA
5495 Posts
An intertia firing pin is one that has an overall length that is shorter than the distance between the face of the hammer at rest against the rear of the bolt and the face of the bolt, yet has a slot that allows movement for a distance greater than that. It allows the pin to travel freely w/o having to over come any spring pressure to engage and set off the primer.
Think of it as a three part pendulum set. At rest none of the three touch, yet when then first in the line (hammer) is drawn back and released it swings forward and strikes the middle one (firing pin) which in turn is shot forward to contact the last one (primer).
I think this system has been used since the introduction of the Model 1886 Winchester and has worked just fine until the advent of the Lawyer (no offense to those on this forum) induced rebounding hammers. I'm just waiting for that ocassion when someone finds it necessary to protect themselves with an arm so equipped, and it's failure to fire ends up with predictible results. I really don't want this to happen, but until it does, and said victim sues the pants off the guilty corporate counsel who insisted that particular piece of nonsense was necessary, they will be continued to be produced.
Griff & "Poco"There is a fine line between "hobby" and "mental illness."
Edited by - Griff on 11/12/2006 2:20:17 PMJ Miller
Advanced Levergunner
USA
6122 Posts
Old Time Hunter,
If the bolt has oil or grease in it, that can harden up in cold weather and stop the inertial firing pin. Try cleaning out the bolt with some aerosol break clean, and see what happens then. Probably should take the stock off, the break cleaner might eat up the finish.
Joe
Old Time Hunter
Senior Levergunner
USA
1430 Posts
Well then, what might I do to get the pin to have enough intertia to set off the primer? At least enough to have the pin touch the primer. J Miller
Advanced Levergunner
USA
6122 Posts
OTH,
Were it my gun I'd take it apart and disassemble the bolt. Make sure it's clean of grease or oil, and possibly metal filings or burrs. Then try again.
If that didn't work then I'd try some of the other things suggested in this thread.
If I still had no success, I'd get rid of the stupid rebounding hammer like I did on my Win 94AE Trapper.
JoeLeverluver
Levergunner 3.0
572 Posts
Griff
To operate properly, the inertia firing pin definitely needs spring tension to the rear. If it didn't, and you point the gun down hill and, as you are correct in saying, the firing pin is shorter than the area in the bolt where it resides, the hammer would not impart any "inertia" to the firing pin to fire the cartridge. The firing pin must be held to it's rear most position, awaiting the hammer strike, to operate properly.
OTH
Yes, grease or oil stiffened by cold can gum up the works. The combination of the inertia firing pin and the rebounding hammer is a very delicate balance to get to operate properly. Any outside interference such as congealed oil can throw that balance off and you wind up with misfires, sometimes, as you observed, a very high percentage of them. To find out if the firing pin is being held up by any lubricant or machining chips or such, just go out in the cold (let the gun get cold) open the action and take your finger and push the firing pin with your finger. If there is some foreign material impeding the firing pin, it will be obvious when you try to push it. If machining chips, you will feel pretty much a hard and consistent blockage to forward movement (don't count out that a chip might hold the firing pin in the no man's land where it won't hit the primer and won't be struck by the hammer). If it is stiff lubricant, the firing pin will feel slugish and will return slowly or not return at all to the rear, under spring pressure, as it should. If it won't come back or comes back slowly, that is enough to cause the misfires. As has been said, that will require dismantling the bolt and clearing the problem.
Wally just tweaked that balance slightly and achieved the result that he desired. Personally, I get tired of trying to balance ball bearings on the edge of razor blades. I say buy a spare hammer strut fork that you can put back in when or if you ever sell the gun. Then cut the rebound tine off the fork of the strut and eliminate the rebound feature. That is the main reason of the misfires if none of the problems mentioned above are occurring. I guarantee that the the hammer will smack the living crap out of the firing pin so hard that the gun will fire, even if the pin were imbeded in coal tar and it was -30F.
I do prefer doing as CRS did and have a pro take a look and perform the strutectomy
